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Seems 'owd Boris has pulled out a pretty decent deal, all things considered.

As usual, the extremities wouldn't have been happy regardless of what he agreed. Strict Brexiteers would have only been satisfied if there was a no deal Brexit and Boris somehow managed to geographically shift the UK further west into the Atlantic, whereas the boring Remainers (SNP included) were always going to scream foul regardless of the quality of the deal, as seen above.

 

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@Super_Danny_Allsopp "Seems 'owd Boris has pulled out a pretty decent deal, all things considered."

No, it's a rubbish deal. Boris, was relying on a Trump re election. The moment that didn't happen, the EU negotiating hand was strengthened.

Boris has sacrificed the tax revenue generator that is the City of London! Negotiating over "fish" where UK fishing families had sold their quotas and pocketed the cash..now demanding they had "sovereignty" over the UK waters...without returning said cash. 

The ideology that drove Brexit was from the media moguls who wanted to preserve the UK tax havens. Sorry @Super_Danny_Allsopp you have been politely, conned big time. There are ZERO Brexit benefits, in a world where inter dependency is more important than being one of the insular little "ing-landers"

Scotland will be sacrificied, as has Northern Ireland... so Boriss master plan is just have an England where Conservative votes are not diluted by the SNP. 

Gibraltar has also been sacrificed, by their signing of Schengen

What Boris doesnt realise, his beloved fish ...are more in Scottish waters than in the English waters

 

Brexit will be the biggest mistake since the Suez crisis. The Tories own it all... The party of business have created the biggest economic suicide note in history

I would be interested to hear what @Super_Danny_Allsopp thinks of the benefits Boris's new deal will bring?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

13 hours ago, Piethagoram said:

@Super_Danny_Allsopp "Seems 'owd Boris has pulled out a pretty decent deal, all things considered."

No, it's a rubbish deal. Boris, was relying on a Trump re election. The moment that didn't happen, the EU negotiating hand was strengthened.

Boris has sacrificed the tax revenue generator that is the City of London! Negotiating over "fish" where UK fishing families had sold their quotas and pocketed the cash..now demanding they had "sovereignty" over the UK waters...without returning said cash. 

The ideology that drove Brexit was from the media moguls who wanted to preserve the UK tax havens. Sorry @Super_Danny_Allsopp you have been politely, conned big time. There are ZERO Brexit benefits, in a world where inter dependency is more important than being one of the insular little "ing-landers"

Scotland will be sacrificied, as has Northern Ireland... so Boriss master plan is just have an England where Conservative votes are not diluted by the SNP. 

Gibraltar has also been sacrificed, by their signing of Schengen

What Boris doesnt realise, his beloved fish ...are more in Scottish waters than in the English waters

 

Brexit will be the biggest mistake since the Suez crisis. The Tories own it all... The party of business have created the biggest economic suicide note in history

I would be interested to hear what @Super_Danny_Allsopp thinks of the benefits Boris's new deal will bring?

 

I generally try to take in quite a variety of sources from different places to establish if it was a good deal or a bad deal, as I'm not an expert in these trade fields, nor I suggest are the thousands of people that are claiming to be on Social Media platforms. When I've taken a look across the board, discounting the extremes that would say pretty much the same thing regardless of the deal, it seems a pretty OK outcome, all things considered. The deal also achieves what many (such as Ed Davey) said was impossible and there is a trade deal complete. 

It's true that Biden isn't particularly a friend of the UK's, whereas Trump was perhaps more friendly, albeit more incompetent. I am no fan of Boris, but he has used the no-deal carrot quite effectively, convincing many that he would use it if needed, which is partly why the Germans felt the need to intervene and stop the French punishment-Brexit that was forthcoming. 

I agree that the services side of the deal is hardly covered, but I'd need to look into that a bit further to make any comment on it. 

Fishing was largely an ideological battle and has relatively no economic impact. However, Boris needed it to save face and so did Macron, which is why it was ever much of an issue in the first place. 

The SNP are an ugly nationalistic beast. Anything that you despise about Boris and other opportunistic/populist style leaders, you will find in abundance within the SNP. 

No need to apologise as I haven't been conned. I wasn't a supporter of Brexit and given the choice I would have happily stayed in the EU. It was a massive mistake by 'Dodgy Dave' to gamble our membership just to get rid of Farage and his pals. It backfired, obviously, and I think history will view it was one of the most ill-advised, misguided actions of any UK politician, ever. Furthermore, asking the common man to vote on EU membership and expecting him to be able to understand all the intricacies, advantages and disadvantages, is farcical. None of us have a true appreciation of this unless we study it intensively. This will include the social media brigade, who became experts overnight. 

There were always negatives in our membership of the EU. The lethargic pace the machine moves and the slow bureaucracy, as shown recently in the EU's vaccination ratification, is mind-numbingly frustrating. Furthermore, the move towards greater unification and the effective abolishment of nation states, with power transfer to Brussels, was deeply worrying from my perspective. I have long held the view that Europe was better with independent states cooperating together as has largely been the case in the EU, even if it meant the slow bureaucracy highlighted above. Other people, however, don't share my belief, and politicians, such as Guy Verhofstadt, want a radically different EU than the one I would envisage. Having said that, I still believed that the UK was better in the EU to counter these types of people, rather than leaving altogether. Guy Verfhofstadt, and people like him, now have a much easier pathway to their vision than before, which is a crying shame. These negatives, however, never outweighed the positives, such as free-movement of people to work and live. I guess you could argue that free-movement is a negative, but again, that depends on perspective. 

There are pros and cons of Brexit, that should surprise nobody. The debate is really about how much importance you place on certain aspects and therefore if the pros outweigh the cons. For me, the pros of membership of the EU are higher than the pros of Brexit, which is why I didn't want the UK to leave.

Anybody claiming that there is no pro or cons for either side, as you have above, has fell into the abyss of the now common-place valley of ideological extremity. This is hardly a new phenomenon, but certainly is a new iteration in common-time and is actually quite dangerous. We've seen it in America over the last few years. Democrats and Republics despise each-other tribally, and they are whipped up with violent rhetoric and ignorance by their so-called leaders. Their are certain factors that come into play with this kind of system, such as identity politics, but that is something for another day. The main factor, however, is that neither side can even begin to comprehend the others' argument and viewpoint, resulting in no common ground and eventually, violence on the streets, as has been seen in America. As mentioned above, it is a very dangerous place that America finds itself in as a result of this ideological extremism, and it needs to begin to rectify it quite quickly. 

However, we have seen this in Brexit, too, fuelled by Social Media platforms (Twitter is probably the worst culprit) and enraged by media outlets. The outcome is that people are divided into ideological camps and the platform for debate is lost, when both sets feel their logical outcome is the only one and cannot be challenged. You are either a Communist, Anti-British EU-phile or an old, racist bigoted Brexiteer. Herein lies the problem. 99.9% of the population fall into neither camp, but it is that 0.1% that make the loudest noise on media platforms, so you could be forgiven into believing they are in fact the majority.  

My one great hope is that this new ideological extremity soon becomes a thing of the past, including those that have promoted it (Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson, Nicola Sturgeon, Donald Trump etc...). Thought, exchange, reason and compromise are far more admirable attributes. 

 

@Super_Danny_Allsopp Just to say a good piece by you above. The referendum vote was done on not knowing what a Leave deal would look like. The last months have shown mutual interdependence is the way to go. I would expect UK to return to EFTA membership within 10 years. Scotland has been ostracised by Westminster ( the seed potato being not included in the deal is Boris's way of punishing them). Scotland will get its 2nd referendum, they will rejoin the EU within 6 years, about the same time Northern Ireland becomes part of the Republic.

Its a shame we have go to this stage, so much grief for so little gain

6 minutes ago, Piethagoram said:

@Super_Danny_Allsopp Scotland has been ostracised by Westminster ( the seed potato being not included in the deal is Boris's way of punishing them). Scotland will get its 2nd referendum, they will rejoin the EU within 6 years, about the same time Northern Ireland becomes part of the Republic.

Its a shame we have go to this stage, so much grief for so little gain

The SNP react in much the same way to everything. You have to give it to them though, they must have a great spin-doctor up there. There record in education and drug-related illness and death is beyond abysmal. Their handling of the Coronavirus was even worse than Boris managed, which is quite some feat. Yet come the end of it, they are smelling of roses and the reason why so many people are dying, despite unprecedented devolution, is because.... because..... the English. 

It's a bad argument, but it's working, for now. One has the feeling that they need this second referendum really quickly, as the disguise is starting to thin. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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